But how long, under the sort of behavior he and others depict, can one be excused for overlooking the facts? They arent slated to start until May, and the people who have heard about it are begging him to start it sooner. God bless you. By creating offices and appointing people to them, we actually kind of circumvent that innate wisdom, we say this here guy has the title, hes the one, even if hes actually all facade and no substance. No judgment from me. Relgious leaders more than ANY other human leader needs to have checks and balance, and bright lights shown on them, since they claim they are preaching the truth.. The setup of elder rule is, in effect, completely unaccountable rule-by-crony. There has been financial fraud committed by Harvest and its leaders. now if only you could do it without whining. Ill be blunt, your post is silly. In the history of the church, which is most seductive: money, sex, or power? I remember it vividly because our child was very, very deeply disturbed and upset, AS WAS I. I had not ever seen the movie, nor intended to ever see it. We should not be surprised that the battle between the false and the true rages on, and should continue to cling to the true, whatever the cost. Thing is, if it were Bill MacDonald, a little-known pastor of a tiny church from Podunk, Alabama, and he and his wife were having marital troubles that didnt involve his abuse of others, it likely wouldnt be anyones business but his close friends and perhaps his little church. Watch Video. Good Grief. ++++++++++++++++++. I can only imagine what was said as explanation, particularly as my spouse (still blindly loyal) remained much longer than I, until our children put up a united appeal to leave. The only church Fred has ever worked for his Harvest. There were kindergarten through 5th graders AND many of us parents / employees, who did not know it was going to be shown. Its your choiceAnonymity is not the same thing as cowardice, but thanks so much for playing that tired old game. Ive tried to leave TWW twice to go fishing or something, but my fans urged me to stay. While Im not one of those men who consistently meets the qualification for eldership, I do know several who do. When youve been around as long as I have, you learn some things. No owner of a company will hire just anyone to oversee operations. These churches treat women so badly, but promise men all sorts of things (that will probably never happen) to keep the men coming. If they depend entirely on the good will or humility of the elder-elects themselves and (no-teeth-allowed, no mechanism for) church members having a say? +++++++++++++++. In September of 2012, we experienced another provision of God, in the form of the Scottish Rite Cathedrala historical landmark we reclaimed for the gospel in the heart of Chicagos Gold Coastwhich became the Chicago Cathedral Campus. Hours . They stated goal is to also expose hypocrisy and arrogance. Me too, back when I was in the last Bible Church. The damage lingers. This is how all men will know that you are my disciples, because you have such love for one another.. What in the world is going on? I dont get the impression that Dee is OK with Hall at all. At a lot of these churches, you try and start an unapproved Bible study on the side, theyll shut it down or insist on putting an approved church leader in control. (Protestia) Dallas Jenkins, son of "Left Behind" author Jerry Jenkins, and Director of the smash-hit TV show The Chosen continued to double down on controversial comments he made last year about Mormons (Latter Day Saints, ie LDS) and Jesus loving the same Jesus, appearing on Ruslan KD's channel and again insisting that some of his Mormon friends I guess I mean that a person, on his or her own, cant do it without God working it out in that person. Just them asking me to become an elder told me something was wrong. To answer your point about making the jump. I dont see how were in disagreement, at least in terms of practical application. When I started diving into church history I was hoping and expecting to find an early church that looked like small home groups with decentralized leadership. As the Lord continued to increase our congregation in depth and number, we outgrew the Rolling Meadows Campus. And all of the gold and silver in those Spanish cathedrals was stolen from colonies in Central and South America, where it was mined by enslaved natives, mostly. He is my Fortress (part 2) Posted on July 11, 2009 by Jeff Block. TS00: What will it take to make him accountable for at least the dollars, which should be somewhat trackable? As our leaders prayed and sought to plant churches in the city of Chicago, a small congregation with a struggling church in Niles was looking for new life. Dallas Jenkins: There have been many people demanding our statements be made public, and now that they are, are rejoicing in that, 1 Corinthians 13:6 This place needs to be shut down. For those who regularly read this blog, question with critical thinking, demand proof for claims made, and hold those posting and commenting to the same standards being written about. I am now beginning to wonder if it is not simply the beginning of wisdom. Samuel Conner: I read an article yesterday about small mainstream churches driven to the wall by the migration to the megas being forced to lease their vacant during the week facilities to small businesses in order to generate enough income to keep the doors open. We have seen God continue to change lives through the people and ministries of our church. This in spite of the fact that our family was the friendly face that attracted many, the ones who were always approachable, in a way that the cool, distant pastor could not be. If for no other reasons, the statements must be public so that the people of HBC see what their Elders saw. It doesnt even look vibrant anymore. The terminal stage 4 cancer exists. The churches have become the world. I am there; have been close to 8-years now. Then, I started laughing! Whose job is the ministry? This comes after several calls from other people including members and deacons of Harvest Bible Chapel, for them to . And he didnt say crap, at least publicly. Turns out that he was looking to fulfill his succession plan all along, and was just cycling thru people until he found one that fit. At the very least, they need to reveal ALL they know, including leading the charge to open all of the financial books, including known and secret accounts. I guess the other 25% are hoping to get some plum positions. A verse comes to mind Beware of Alexander the Coppersmith he has done us much harm., http://thewartburgwatch.com/tww2/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Dallas-Jenkins-1.pdf. My new son-in-law is a United Methodist pastor. im so glad i resisted & refused all the pressure the christian community put on everyone concerning that film. Thrilled for both of them as they start their life together. In some cases these elders may be greater in years of living faithfully rather than simply age. 2 -. Culty. I once perceived this as a tragic loss, leading only to hopeless cynicism. None of us called Christian should reach the last chapter of life and still be asking What is truth? dont let the mere teachings of men distract you from finding it read the red and pray for revelation! Having read the explanations of some of the associates and enablers who have pulled away from HBC, this does seem to have been part of why they put up with the wrongness coming from the top. I suspect, from many comments of those involved, that there was an actual mafia-like aspect of JMacs control. Craig French: Thanks for confirming the authenticity of the content, Dallas. Were more or less on the same page, it sounds like. Same thing I guess. Max:in their heart of hearts they dont really give a big hoot about reading the precious words in red, let alone the rest of Scripture.I dont see the point in saying that you are a Christ-follower if you dont get to know Him through reading His Word. SiteSeer: Is there a foolproof system that cant be gamed? just more places for the wolves to hide. To whom was it sent? And for keeping ones mouth shut on the way out? They truly have no idea. The lawsuit also claims that beginning in 2018, a pastor at one of Harvest's campuses began working with a "disgruntled" former Harvest worker, filmmaker Dallas Jenkins, to solicit letters. I hope that the HBC and WC churches become text book examples for future generations of Christians of what not to do. And we are in the Lent season. said THATS what Jesus did for YOU!. Nice list. Truth (the Word) + The Spirit of Truth (Holy Spirit) = Revealed Truth. Neither Dean Butters nor I wanted our letters published. Why would a quickly growing church choose an unproven young man, father of very young children (along with others similarly unproven, all from our young marrieds class) to be an elder, responsible for overseeing and counseling others? Max: I suspect that even MacDonald started out with good intentions (maybe). Knowing what we now know about this bunch, Dallas did a remarkable job at his craft! I pray that God will continue to use you to shine a spotlight on wicked works of darkness in Christendom today. I appreciate both of you being so vulnerable. You should make your case by offering proof. ++++++++++++++++++. Im convinced that an antinomian spirit has taken control of some ministries, where church leaders feel they have been released by grace from the obligation of observing the moral law. Gone on any safaris or gambling junkets with MacDonald & your dad? May you feel Gods presence and peace in the days ahead. If you truly believed your comment you would not have posted it. ++++++++++++++++++++++. Indeed, I tremble considering even posting this brief comment for fear of retribution. Honest question: why does it matter what Paul thinks? Thats when the insanity really began. Hey, if you look at JMACs Instagram he has a pic from fall of 2018 praising Mark Driscolls new book? The movie is being produced by Vertical Church Films, a new film-making branch of the Elgin-based megachurch Harvest Bible Chapel, with its estimated $2 million budget underwritten by the. Well said, both TS00 and SiteSeer. He added the promise of millions of dollars in renos and expansions, via the Closer Campaign, in order to sweeten the pot. If a familys personal pain about a very private matter doesnt fit that category, I dont know what would. More Events. Its sad to have lived to such a ripe old age to witness a generation that doesnt respect their elders as they ought. I dont know, if one follows Twitter, there are several who have commented that attended church with JMac in his youth, and they have nothing positive to say about him or his character from way back. Those types rarely think of anyone but themselves. We simply interpret the words through a different filter. For you, maybe, but not for most here. While I might be willing to grant that many elders/leaders probably start out with relatively good intentions, I suspect that the genuinely evil wolves (yes, I count MacDonald and Hybels as wolves, not fallen shepherds) are pretty good at picking out those who are most vulnerable to deception and temptation. Do you mean it was given to those elders who assisted in helping JMac continue on with his antics? The imprisoned Colonel, intelligent, patriotic, disciplined and well-meaning, oversees the building of a bridge far superior to anything his captors could have dreamed of. Have seen the exact same thing. Dee also claims to have the inside track on the facts regarding Braxtons suicide but refuses to explain, only stating that the explanation would cause more pain. It just completely sets things up for abusive situations. The Four Pillars of HBC: 1 - PROCLAIMING the authority of God's Word without apology. Without any explanation, Dee says she is convinced that Hall is repentant. If so, that would be a good thing if we could get back to letting the Main Thing be the main thing. You state things so well that there is little to no need to add anything. http://www.globalpokerindex.com/poker-players/frederick-adams-169223/. You have done some confession, but in private only. Movies Popular Now Playing Upcoming Top Rated TV Shows Popular Airing Today On TV Top Rated People The place is not worth saving. Let him call for the elders [PRESBUTEROS] of the church, and let them pray over him (James 5:14). In April of 2021, following an extensive search and urgent prayer, the Elders of Harvest Bible Chapel announced the new Lead Teaching Pastor to be Dr. Jeff Bucknam. ex HCA Staff: Someone should also dig into the incident regarding the video of Mel Gibsons Passion of the Christ that was shown to HCA ELEMENTARY school children without any warning or notice to parents in the first year of the schools history during Holy Week. The leaders of Harvest clearly did not shin light of problems; in fact it well documented now they were bullies/godfathers supressing thetruth. One can attempt to form a very egalitarian group where no one is in charge, but it only works until a dysfunctional person makes a power grab. If you are insulted because of the name of Christ, you are blessed, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you. We were in a panic, didnt have enough hands to scramble around and cover all their eyes, which, up to this point, had been quite innocent. Friend: Im of course speaking about Paul. Or would they even care? The church (ecclesia) had little say in eldership or pastor. Because he met the qualifications for eldership? These charlatans cannot be allowed to get away with this. And of course you. So, as you imply, in their heart of hearts they dont really give a big hoot about reading the precious words in red, let alone the rest of Scripture. At least we can see from this that publicizing facts online does provably result in change. His men are perplexed, but only at the very end does he realize his foolishness, crying, My God, what have I done? before aiming his dying body at the detonator to blow up his glorious creation. We have seen that the octopus has many arms, from mega-churches to major christian publications to all of the organizations that feed the monster. My understanding is that Driscoll also consulted with Gateway. Q: Why do narcissists go to seminary? CJ Mahaney spread $$$ which brought him years of support from the Calvinista leaders.. Yes, Dee, we must all fight to preserve the right to arm bears! TS00: And perhaps we should remember that Jesus did not come to set up authoritative institutions, but to gather his individual lost sheep. I sincerely thank you for this letter and the emotional turmoil you overcame to write it. Cut corners in the case of MacDonald, Hybels, Driscoll, and assorted others meant they decided it was OK to be a little wicked if a little good could come from it. Agreed. TS00: Agreed. This is indeed the plan of Satan, IMO, but when you try to suggest such a thing you are usually scoffed at as a conspiracy theorist. Sadly, it is not uncommon to find that in time of great loss, the church is not really there for them after all, that in case of health problems that make one unable to serve, they are quickly forgotten, that the great majority of those friendships have a tendency to evaporate or even turn to shunning if put to the test; that it was all a grand illusion, after all the time, effort and loyalty invested. Law Prof: I dont know if its just that I got old enough and wise enough to start seeing it or cynical and hardened as I got older, but after going through the 1980s and 1990s able to find what I thought were decent churches, for over a decade I havent to find a place that isnt abusive, heretical, led by a narcissist or all the the above. I can completely understand why Dee wouldnt want people here to be dragging stuff out and speculating about a teenage boy. Dallas Jenkins: It was given to the elders two months ago. Wow. The proof of the Jesuss death and resurrection is what allows us to have faith in the things unseen. well, there will be more when parts of a belief system dont stand up to reality, its totally bewildering, [theres a word for what im feeling.it escapes me. Every weekend we open the word of God and study the truth He has revealed to us. More and more, I am willing to settle for walking with God, and being thankful for a community of people I may never meet in this life, but who support and encourage one another in the manner God called his people to do. Consistent with your recreational activities, you took a gamble and lost. so you dont. FOR DALLAS JENKINS, telling stories comes naturally. Info on the photo is apparently wrong. Another campus grew out of the prayers and intercession of a core group in Chicagos North Shore. Growth group leaders, childrens staff and volunteers, and many others were committed to creating ways to safely and faithfully meet together. The word contains with it a reference to age. How does he know that? The posting of it on this website is unfortunate, as are many of the false rumors in the comments both here and on Twitter from anonymous people. I do apologize to Dallas, and to anyone I may have misled with my faulty information. Ken F (aka Tweed): Rather, it appears that the early church looked much more Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, or Anglican than low-church protestant. Our staff and volunteer leaders cant wait to welcome your kids to our safe, secure, age-appropriate program. Based on my 70-year snapshot of the institutional church, theres a vast difference in what Christ describes vs. what we have put together in this thing we call church. It is likely that he deliberately sought the chips he could cash in on anyone who might be in a position to spill the beans. Churches will line up for this. All we get is CYA, after the fact, trying to make the best of whats already been leaked. Honstly, could we get any further from demanding perfection from James MacDonald? that exploited the greater public, as well, if you consider how they subsidized the tax-free advantages of Harvest Bible Chapel and its staff. As you think, consider the following passages of Scripture: From Miletus he sent to Ephesus and called for the elders [PRESBUTEROS] of the churchTherefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers [EPISKOPOS], to shepherd [POIMEN] the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. (Acts 20:17, 28), The elders [PRESBUTEROS] who are among you I exhort, I who am a fellow elder [PRESBUTEROS] and a witness of the suffering of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that will be revealed; shepherd [POIMEN] the flock of God which is among you, serving as overseers [EPISKOPOS], not by compulsion but willingly, not for dishonest gain but eagerly. (1 Peter 5:1-2). Were so far off the original model for doing church, Im not sure we can find our way back. It appears he has been a poser, a bully and a thug for a very long time. Lets keep in mind that the XLT members were all making 6 figures and had very generous T&E accounts and were living the life of rockstars prior to this implosion. What will it take to make him accountable for at least the dollars, which should be somewhat trackable? I REMEMBER STORIES OF FREAKOUTS AND LONG-TERM TERROR REACTIONS FROM CHURCH SCREENINGS OF THIEF IN THE NIGHT WHAT WOULD YOU EXPECT FROM DOING THE SAME TO YOUNGER KIDS WITH PASSION OF THE CHRIST? Good analogy, since Vietnamese restaurants tend to be small and committed to authenticity, without extorting the customer. He stands to shield me from danger dee: You chose to serve in a church with incredibly stupid, unbiblical and mean people in charge. That someone who was on the point of dying took time to write these dreams down is remarkable in and of itself. Oh, they couldnt get away with that completely. According to Titus 1:5-9 HBC Youth Bible Study. it is wrong. I will admit I now find it kind of shocking that a guy who never knew Jesus in life could muscle his way in and call himself an apostle among the other apostles. Spot on with your comment. I was there (our kids went there for 2 too long years) and it was unreal what went on during and after that incident. He is already in the process of trying to reboot his digital ministry (WITW)and is romancing wealthy donors in Naples, FL from the $1.2M home in Naples that Harvest rented for him. His LLC scheme was dreamed up because James announced that no new debt would be taken on until the $43M in debt was paid off in full. Everything after those three paragraphs is my comment. Harvest Bible Chapel Hillsong United James Dobson James MacDonald Jason Sobel Jenna Browder Jennie Lusko Joel Smallbone John Hessup Jonathan Roumie Joni Lamb Jordan Feliz Kari Jobe Katie Torwalt Kay Robertson Kirk Cameron KLOVE Leanna Crawford Levi Lusko Mandisa Marcus Lamb Matt Hagee Matt Maher Mavericm City Michael Jr Phil Robertson Phil Vischer He produced the independent feature "Hometown Legend" at the age of 25 and shepherded it to distribution by Warner Brothers. I suspect that there is a world of difference between what we see in the NT and what we experience in our day, even in groups that try to adhere to the so-called Biblical model. Apparently, many pastors have opted to preach the gospel for the wrong reasons .. to toss out the name of Jesus now and then while they work their deception to benefit themselves. Church history is full of documentation on Mark Driscolls misbehavings, but that bad-boy legacy didnt stop him from launching his current ministry in Arizona. can you elaborate on what went on during and after the showing of The Passion Of The Christ? True repentance requires owning up to all you have done, letting the light of truth in to the dark closets that have been hiding the wicked deeds of the past. seeing the beauty of the deposit of God in them. As Paul cautioned the church at large to beware of Alexander, he has done us much harm, so the watchblogs speak to inform and warn other believers to be wary of certain leaders. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt. Ideally, we wouldnt need Twitter and blogs to expose the truth about corrupt churches, ministries, and their leaders. Never, and I mean never, have I heard someone say, I would leave, but I just cant survive without the gifted teaching. It really doesnt take long for traditions to get set in stone, as it were. Thats it! Harvest Bible Chapel looks forward to the future as we continue training up ministry leaders, pastors and church plants that seek to fulfill the Great Commission in Matthew 8:28. This is why I was born, and for this I have come into the world, to testify to the Truth. In the Seventies, I got mixed up in an end-of-the-world cult Fellowship(TM) that didnt have any single leader figure only a plurality of (20-to-25-year old) elders. Elsewhere on this thread I talked about a situation where itd be cruel imo to air public matters. That is such a terrible alternative that its not hard to imagine that people could be willing to engage in all kinds of objectively evil things sin in order to avert that outcome. Thats my personal experience after over a decade in the fold, and several years since interacting with many former Reformed folk; no offense intended. It could very well be that Christianity is at the tipping point where believers realize that they are doing church without God where they have put their faith in religious systems of assorted belief and practice, rather than building a personal relationship with Christ. But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop them (Acts 5:38-39). Bridget: I dont know, Ken. Nice job. It was then that the whole sham of our relationship was exposed, and when I rebuffed him he moved on to someone else. The history of church offices is a bit more complicated. Vincent: you must have first hand knowledge and part of that fellowship in some fashion. Dee kindly explained my comment had been flagged because of some word in it and I wasnt blocked. Law Prof: Years later, the church long ago destroyed by heavy abuse and the former members scattered, a number of them atheists today, that drama pastor is now into the New Age. I read your posts as a searing, agonized, utterly sincere *cri de ceour. What they all have in common is serving self interest, whereas the crux of the life and message of Jesus is that the way to life is to lay down self and serve others. In destructive cults that pose as Christian megas, there is evidently an attitude of privilege and authority among those who call themselves elders that is simply nonexistent in the Bibleit seems anti-Christ, actually. We have millions of church folks in America who say they would die to protect the Bible, but not many actually read it! If the elders are in place primarily because they are buds of the pastor (yes-men), wealthy, prominent in the community, popular in the church but do not meet the Biblical qualifications to serve in that sacred office if there is no evidence in their lives of being filled with the Holy Spirit and being above reproach then you have a Harvest Bible Chapel or Willow Creek mess waiting to happen, regardless of the size of the ministry. But no matter what, it will get bent quickly if thats whats happening. I had a churchgoer tell me once in a Bible Study to Lighten up Max. Yep, 90-days would have been about the right time to bail out before their resume became tainted. Harvest Bible Chapel has owned its mistakes and endured to become a happier and healthier church, whose members recently pledged financially, in their walk/work for Christ, and in their. If GP will cave to SBC outrage over a tweet in order to GET the contract, what else might they quietly cave on for the sake of KEEPING the contract or for getting the next one? Iowa Steve: Maybe Christianity in all its forms has reached the Tipping Point Where enough believers realize their belief doesnt work for them anymore and Christianity will fade away? I presume this is because he has a much bigger platform, but if that is not the reason, I am open to hear. I send my kids to a school literally run by bullies. It just means there was (and is) nothing in that church resembling a true church. The pastor was grooming me to be an elder, made hints that I could take over for him someday. Fayetteville, AR 72703. If all this was that important to the leaders they would have been apoplectic at what they witnessed from JM. It seems that this website is a place where nobodys can act in Gods place as judge and jury. Echoes of simony as well as James 2:2-4, There are arguably relational dis-economies of scale in social structures. What deceivers do, in the church as well as other man-made institutions, is infiltrate this natural system, substituting charismatic charlatans for genuinely mature and godly elders. The people of God have forsaken their first love. Probably took over where my favorite Vietnamese restaurant used to be. That said, the bishops, priests, and deacons are supposed to be models of humility and servanthood. You should repent and make reparations where necessary. Forgive MacDonald if he genuinely repents? Amy Moore, That was 30 years ago and it proved to be true. I share this for all who, like me, are overcome with new sadness, pain and loss amidst the HBC, Willow, Catholic church, ECFA, SBC, GFA, etc. I think Sinclair Lewis was an emotional infant and had a lot more in common with Elmer Gantry than he had the introspection to see. It sounds more like men puffing up their status among the brothers . You have not fully recognized the level of evil that you eagerly participated in in order to promote yourself riding on the coattails of a famous narcissist and personally enrich yourself unrighteously with tithes that the New Testament does not even teach. If you had anything, Dallas, youd have shared it. Now they want it back. I do not believe this is an endorsement of P&P, but I do believe this shows fear. Then, Rick Donald, James MacDonald, and Elder Steve Huston worked to suppress them from the rest of the Elders. 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Childrens staff and volunteer leaders cant wait to welcome your kids to a school literally run by.... Respect their elders as they start their life together is CYA, after the showing of the content Dallas! Is an endorsement of P & P, but in private only get in... My faulty information on TV Top Rated people the place is not same... Jesus talked to the leaders they would have been apoplectic at what witnessed! Keeping ones mouth shut on the point of dying took time to out! Arguably relational dis-economies of scale in social structures elder, made hints that i could take for! Letters published be greater in years of support from the Calvinista leaders me once in a Bible to., agonized, utterly sincere * cri de ceour take long for traditions to get in... The days ahead of retribution September of 2015 can find our way back from JM this website a. Endorsement of P & P, but in private only and still be asking what is?! With your recreational activities, you will not be able to stop them ( Acts 5:38-39 ) of... School literally run by bullies dollars, which should be somewhat trackable under the sort of he! Urged me to stay favorite Vietnamese restaurant used to be true siteseer: is there a foolproof system that be! Have Posted it a reference to age in a Bible study to Lighten up max the facts publicizing facts does... Interpret the words through a different filter the pot & your dad thanks confirming! School literally run by bullies result in change be able to stop them ( Acts 5:38-39 ) told. A teenage boy to Lighten up max when i rebuffed him he moved to!

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